We shouldn’t let the absurd 5G marketing effort divert us. I say absurd because don’t need gigabit connectivity merely to check the price of tomatoes in the market or send an image to ask if a rash is infectious.
Nice to read about frugal 5G. I see you combine the Wi-Fi with mobile operator models and centered into the SDN model. Nice, a bit confusing. I don't see why centering all under SDN and a global controller.
Just a general comment/clarification about wireless (mobile, Wi-Fi ...). The G is about Generations, and there are several related but separate things in the 5G bundle:
- A lot of it (the "new radio") will come anyway to Wi-Fi (for instance 802.11ax in the 2.4-5GHz, ad or ay in 60GHz) with speeds in the range of 1-20 Gbps. One discussion from the IEEE Communications Society: http://techblog.comsoc.org/2018/07/21/will-802-11ax-be-a-5g-contender/
Therefore, the target speeds of 1 Gbps of user experience and peak up to 20 Gbps will come anyway and probably at the same time in mobile and Wi-Fi networks (both types of radio chipsets more or less come from the same sources).
- The other is about business models: 5G is about mobile operators, and keeping as much as possible in their controlled networks, away from the open Internet.
In that model, mobile operator networks offer very high quality (low latency, performance guarantees) at a price inside their own network, while keep both "eyeballs" and content providers as customers inside its network. The Internet is outside (the operator's "walled garden"), slower and less predictable, in their model. In that centralized (operator) model, software defined networks make a lot of sense, much less in Internet networks like community networks.
Wi-Fi and community networks clearly differ in the "business models" from mobile operator networks. Your Wi-Fi access point at home may be "yours" and can be meshed with others and become part of a community network if you want to, but your 5G base station at home will be an operator box, just a service.
- Regarding service cost and coverage, my bet is 5G, the big investment required, may slow down the expansion of mobile access to rural and remote areas, as the focus is in higher/premium quality service for a higher price service, and higher infrastructure cost per customer (high margin), instead of "best-effort"/commodity quality, at low price, low cost hw per customer (thin or negative margin).
If you want more, we have a research paper exploring some of these issues http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro/pubs/5G.pdf
Comments are very welcome, let's see if we can develop alternative models for "next generation" models for everyone, not mainly focused on those with high-end mobiles in dense affluent areas.
Regards, Leandro.
On 28/8/18 05:41, Sarbani Banerjee Belur wrote:
Dear Jane,
Prof. Abhay Karandikar is working on 5G solutions for rural broadband. His presentation can be viewed in the link below.
https://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/~karandi/talks/Rural%20Broadband%20and%20Frugal%205G.pdf
With regards,
Sarbani
On 28-08-2018 03:54, Jane Coffin wrote:
Hi Siva –
Thank you for this.
From what I have seen – 5G seems to be an urban solution with some heavy equipment costs (still in projection phase).
Have you seen any presentations on 5G and rural solutions?
Best,
Jane
Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429
I am not sure if the attached Qualcomm presentation by Yongbin Wei has already been shared by any one in this mailing list. Found this, interesting because it talks about horizontal and vertical spectrum sharing, says MM bands are naturally more suitable for sharing, talks about Spatial Division Multiplexing, others on this list might understand all this better...
Aspire and take CNs to 5G ????
Thank you for your kind words.
I took time to respond to your message as I was spending time on http://villagetelco.org . Watched the video on the front page, and it was fascinating to learn that mesh potato also doubles as some form of a local telecom intranet.
Long before messenger, skype and whatsapp, sometime during 2000, a friend from Montreal told me that his telecom provider bundled wireless in his cellular telephone, and provided the ability for the subscribers to use the phone as a phone, and also as a wireless handset, with options (don't recollect if it was for the extended cellular range or for the limited wireless range, and not sure if the wireless range was different from the cellular range) for each subscriber to choose five other subscribers as an inner network, flip a button and talk to any of them, and the four others in turn had the ability to choose their own circle of five friends.
Mesh potato enhances the value of the Community Networks by enabling local communications. When the Internet of Community Networks is bundled with LAN features, and even more, with close circle network features, the value of the Community Network surpasses that of commercial networks. Just a thought. ( I am also reading your hardware specifications with interest.)
Thank you for taking the time to review and make such thoughtful commentary on the draft paper. We will certainly take your feedback into consideration in producing the final version.
Regards... Steve (and Carlos)
P.S. Love the parking lot analogy!
Please receive the attached comments on the ISOC Spectrum Paper together with some unverified thoughts.
Hi Siva –
Brian Hall from NYC Mesh is included in this thread. He can help explain NYCMesh.
I fully agree that different connectivity models need to be considered and would add that different policy/regulatory models also need to be considered. It is something we are keenly in favor of 😉
Links to some recent papers on Community Networks also are below and attached is a Spectrum Paper we are looking for feed-back on by 24 August.
Steve Song, Carlos Rey-Moreno, Mike Jensen are the primary authors with direction/collaboration with our team at the Internet Society. Please send me an email if you do have comments for us to consider.
Other Resources:
Case Study/Article re CN in Georgia: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/05/technology/caucuses-mountains-internet.html
African CN Paper – Partnership with Carlos Rey-Moreno: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CommunityNetworkingAfrica_report_May2017_1.pdf
India – CN Paper – Partnership with DEF: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/W4C-Policy-Paper_Dec2017.pdf
Licensing Brief: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Unleashing-Community-Networks_Innovative_Licensing_Approaches-2.pdf
Spectrum Approaches for CNs: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Spectrum-Approaches-for-Community-Networks_20171010.pdf
The inputs to the IGF from this Coalition are really great and Luca has the links.
Best,
Jane
Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429
Thank you for the informative messages and links. DEF has done considerable work in the area of Community Networks, and several networks such as the one that Sarbani has written about exist in India. However there are issues related to the scale and scope of operation, which revolve around the regulatory policies that make it a little difficult to create and operate networks.
If I understood well, the NY Mesh network has a supernode from the IXP and its bandwidth comes from the IXP. I am copying this thread to Osama Manzar of DEF to ask if there are examples of Community Networks in India that do not depend on agreements with Telecom Operators / telecom related ISPs, which may not wholeheartedly support Community Networks beyond the notion of small rural networks.
There are a few problems that need to be addressed, and a different connectivity model may be required together with ample support from the Telecom ministry for the spread of community networks in India.
Apologies - I hit send before adding the links:
DEF: http://defindia.org/
Video on The Land of Zero Connect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq27X8CJLTM
Link to APC's Community Network Newsletter: https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connect-themselves
ISOC's Community Network site: https://www.internetsociety.org/issues/community-networks/
Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
Skype: janercoffin
Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429
On 8/16/18, 11:52 AM, "dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net on behalf of Jane Coffin" <dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net on behalf of coffin@isoc.org> wrote:
To add - you will find a lot of interesting information here at the DEF site:
See also this video about a remote area of India and lack of connectivity and Community Networks coming in to help:
We often hear these arguments about "coverage". The issue is not just the mobile network footprint (coverage area), but whether the services are affordable, and if end-users have a choice. Community Networks are a viable option in
Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
Skype: janercoffin
Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429
On 8/16/18, 11:27 AM, "dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net on behalf of Sarbani Banerjee Belur" <dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net on behalf of sarbanibelur@iitb.ac.in> wrote:
Hi Sivasubramanian,
Community networks does exist in India and it is a sustainable initiative.
Gram Marg at IIT Bombay has set up one spanning 10 villages in Palghar,
Maharashtra, Digital Empowerment Foundation has set up some as well. There
are more going to be set up in this year and the next. These CNs are set
up in locations that have no mobile connectivity and are usually in
remote, rural villages of India.
Local ISPs have come to the rescue and provide bandwidth in such locations.
With regards,
Sarbani
> In Chennai, India, I spoke to someone in an educational institution about
> starting a Community Network. He argued that access is no longer a problem
> as Telecom companies offer 3G and 4G services everywhere. He wouldn't
> listen to arguments concerning the cost and clever pricing models of
> access
> that indiscernably amass huge sums by microscopic extraction, wouldn't
> listen to arguments about nominal and actual bandwidth. He and some
> others
> take the position that a case does not exist for Community Networks here.
>
> Happens to be an iconic opinion. It is a challenge to present arguments,
> articles such as this are of ample help.
>
> Sivasubramanian M
>
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:20 PM Marco Zennaro <mzennaro@ictp.it> wrote:
>
>> Interesting news:
>>
>>
>> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne5k5m/consumer-reports-broadband-company-ratings
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Marco
>>
>> Marco Zennaro, PhD // Research Officer // T/ICT4D Lab // ICTP //
>> wireless.ictp.it
>>
>>
>>
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--
Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur
Senior Project Research Scientist
Program Manager
Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project
Department of Electrical Engineering
IIT Bombay
Powai
Mumbai 400076
Mob: +91 9867282979
+91 7045620077
Website: www.grammarg.in
Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/
Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com
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_______________________________________________
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DC3@listas.altermundi.net
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--
Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur
Senior Project Research Scientist
Program Manager
Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project
Department of Electrical Engineering
IIT Bombay
Powai
Mumbai 400076
Mob: +91 9867282979
+91 7045620077
Website: www.grammarg.in
Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/
Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com
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