Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America

(Note that I corrected this to “the Internet is NOT a distant place) This is a longer discussion (and I give talks about this at Techfest at ITT/Bombay in December 2015 though I wonder what happened to the videos). More to the point it needs to be a conversation. The best I can do is encourage you question all the givens and implicit assumptions. If 5G were just about less expensive radios then it might be interesting but those radios are very high capacity with very limited range with huge backhaul needs. Great for justifying expensive infrastructure but Wi-Fi makes far more sense communities. Is there a capacity problem and “spectrum” shortage in areas that have no service? As to low revenue per user. Do we forego roads because they are low revenue? We understand they are community infrastructure and not a way for the roader owner to extract money from a community. And the cloud – 1970’s vintage intelligent network. If we accept the term “cloud services” then the are outside the facilities and not telco services. Anyone can offer services. From: dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; On Behalf Of Sivasubramanian Muthusamy Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 00:58 To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America On Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 9:30 AM &lt;dc3(a)bob.ma <mailto:dc3@bob.ma> > wrote: First, to be positive, 5G radios can be useful. If radios are useful, and access points can be sub 1- 6 GHz wide band including mm bands, and the capacity for data is 100x, why not work around these benefits? But 5G comes with the baggage of the old line intelligent network and telco-style network management. One red flag is “Low Average Revenue Per User” plus all the cloud and fog computing. This all works against locally owned connectivity. Huwei also talks about cloud architecture for 5G. Why is this emphasis on cloud? What is implied by low average revenue per user? Most important the Internet far away that you connect to. That was the way the phone companies view it in the days of dial up. It is the fundamental IP infrastructure upon which the other services are created in the users’ and community applications. https://rmf.vc/IEEEBBToInfrastructure. For more on 5G https://rmf.vc/IEEE5GATSC From: dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> > On Behalf Of Sarbani Banerjee Belur Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 23:42 To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> > Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America Dear Jane, Prof. Abhay Karandikar is working on 5G solutions for rural broadband. His presentation can be viewed in the link below. https://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/~karandi/talks/Rural%20Broadband%20and%20Frugal%2… With regards, Sarbani On 28-08-2018 03:54, Jane Coffin wrote: Hi Siva – Thank you for this. Have you seen any presentations on 5G and rural solutions? Best, Jane Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 From: <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; on behalf of Sivasubramanian M <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com&gt; Reply-To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; Date: Monday, August 27, 2018 at 6:17 PM To: <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org> &quot;steve(a)villagetelco.org&quot; <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org> &lt;steve(a)villagetelco.org&gt;rg>, Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America I am not sure if the attached Qualcomm presentation by Yongbin Wei has already been shared by any one in this mailing list. Found this, interesting because it talks about horizontal and vertical spectrum sharing, says MM bands are naturally more suitable for sharing, talks about Spatial Division Multiplexing, others on this list might understand all this better... Aspire and take CNs to 5G ???? On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:57 PM Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > wrote: Dear Steve, Thank you for your kind words. I took time to respond to your message as I was spending time on <http://villagetelco.org/> http://villagetelco.org . Watched the video on the front page, and it was fascinating to learn that mesh potato also doubles as some form of a local telecom intranet. Long before messenger, skype and whatsapp, sometime during 2000, a friend from Montreal told me that his telecom provider bundled wireless in his cellular telephone, and provided the ability for the subscribers to use the phone as a phone, and also as a wireless handset, with options (don't recollect if it was for the extended cellular range or for the limited wireless range, and not sure if the wireless range was different from the cellular range) for each subscriber to choose five other subscribers as an inner network, flip a button and talk to any of them, and the four others in turn had the ability to choose their own circle of five friends. Mesh potato enhances the value of the Community Networks by enabling local communications. When the Internet of Community Networks is bundled with LAN features, and even more, with close circle network features, the value of the Community Network surpasses that of commercial networks. Just a thought. ( I am also reading your hardware specifications with interest.) Sivasubramanian M On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:50 PM Steve Song &lt;steve(a)villagetelco.org <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org> > wrote: Dear Siva, Thank you for taking the time to review and make such thoughtful commentary on the draft paper. We will certainly take your feedback into consideration in producing the final version. Regards... Steve (and Carlos) P.S. Love the parking lot analogy! On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 at 12:34, Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > wrote: Dear Jane, Please receive the attached comments on the ISOC Spectrum Paper together with some unverified thoughts. Sivasubramanian M On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:13 AM Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 7:11 AM Jane Coffin &lt;coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org> > wrote: Hi Siva – Brian Hall from NYC Mesh is included in this thread. He can help explain NYCMesh. I fully agree that different connectivity models need to be considered and would add that different policy/regulatory models also need to be considered. It is something we are keenly in favor of 😉 Links to some recent papers on Community Networks also are below and attached is a Spectrum Paper we are looking for feed-back on by 24 August. midnight DC time? Thanks. Steve Song, Carlos Rey-Moreno, Mike Jensen are the primary authors with direction/collaboration with our team at the Internet Society. Please send me an email if you do have comments for us to consider. Other Resources: Case Study/Article re CN in Georgia: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/05/technology/caucuses-mountain… African CN Paper – Partnership with Carlos Rey-Moreno: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CommunityNetwork… India – CN Paper – Partnership with DEF: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/W4C-Policy-Paper… Licensing Brief: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Unleashing-Commu… Spectrum Approaches for CNs: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Spectrum-Approac… The inputs to the IGF from this Coalition are really great and Luca has the links. Best, Jane Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 From: &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> > on behalf of Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > Reply-To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> > Date: Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:47 PM To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> >, osama manzar &lt;osamam(a)gmail.com <mailto:osamam@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America Dear Jane, Thank you for the informative messages and links. DEF has done considerable work in the area of Community Networks, and several networks such as the one that Sarbani has written about exist in India. However there are issues related to the scale and scope of operation, which revolve around the regulatory policies that make it a little difficult to create and operate networks. If I understood well, the NY Mesh network has a supernode from the IXP and its bandwidth comes from the IXP. I am copying this thread to Osama Manzar of DEF to ask if there are examples of Community Networks in India that do not depend on agreements with Telecom Operators / telecom related ISPs, which may not wholeheartedly support Community Networks beyond the notion of small rural networks. There are a few problems that need to be addressed, and a different connectivity model may be required together with ample support from the Telecom ministry for the spread of community networks in India. Thank you. On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 11:01 PM Jane Coffin &lt;coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org> > wrote: Apologies - I hit send before adding the links: DEF: http://defindia.org/ Video on The Land of Zero Connect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq27X8CJLTM Link to APC's Community Network Newsletter: https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec… ISOC's Community Network site: https://www.internetsociety.org/issues/community-networks/ Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 On 8/16/18, 11:52 AM, &quot;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of Jane Coffin" &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org> > wrote: To add - you will find a lot of interesting information here at the DEF site: See also this video about a remote area of India and lack of connectivity and Community Networks coming in to help: We often hear these arguments about "coverage". The issue is not just the mobile network footprint (coverage area), but whether the services are affordable, and if end-users have a choice. Community Networks are a viable option in Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 On 8/16/18, 11:27 AM, &quot;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of Sarbani Banerjee Belur" &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of sarbanibelur(a)iitb.ac.in <mailto:sarbanibelur@iitb.ac.in> > wrote: Hi Sivasubramanian, Community networks does exist in India and it is a sustainable initiative. Gram Marg at IIT Bombay has set up one spanning 10 villages in Palghar, Maharashtra, Digital Empowerment Foundation has set up some as well. There are more going to be set up in this year and the next. These CNs are set up in locations that have no mobile connectivity and are usually in remote, rural villages of India. Local ISPs have come to the rescue and provide bandwidth in such locations. With regards, Sarbani -- Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur Senior Project Research Scientist Program Manager Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project Department of Electrical Engineering IIT Bombay Powai Mumbai 400076 Mob: +91 9867282979 +91 7045620077 Website: www.grammarg.in <http://www.grammarg.in> Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/ <http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/%7Esarbanibelur/> Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com <http://sarbanibelur.blogspot.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Steve Song +1 902 529 0046 http://villagetelco.org _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur Senior Project Research Scientist Program Manager Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project Department of Electrical Engineering IIT Bombay Powai Mumbai 400076 Mob: +91 9867282979 +91 7045620077 Website: www.grammarg.in <http://www.grammarg.in> Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/ Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com <http://sarbanibelur.blogspot.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3