Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America

29 Aug 2018

As Bob and Steve comment, we should separate economic arguments with the
technical ones.

Aside from the mobile network industry marketing for its irresistible
mobile service bundle and their luxury use cases (e.g.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/05/technology/business/5g-internet-of-skills/…
= forget anything affordable if you're not in the corner cases of an
orchestra or a surgeon), there is the Internet for Everyone ...:

Regarding tech, there are promises coming from the IEEE 802.11* and the
radio chip industry (Qualcomm, Broadcom, Intel, ... on both games).

Beyond APs, there are mesh networks that can benefit from the same
innovations: as a fact, there is already one experimental 60 GHz link
delivering 700 Mbps in the largest wireless mesh network in Barcelona
crowdfunded and deployed by local volunteers:
http://dsg.ac.upc.edu/qmpsu/index.php (BCCanBruixa20Rd6), with faster
speeds expected in future firmware updates.

... and fibre with never ending capacity
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength-division_multiplexing), and
Ethernet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.3) with specs for 100,
200, 400 Gbps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terabit_Ethernet).

We also have the public Internet, where public specs and tech that can
help. What do you think these specs (IETF) should pay attention to?
This is the list of active working groups: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/

In the IRTF, the research branch of IETF, there are relevant WG (at
least GAIA, HRPC, perhaps DINRG).
As co-chair, together with Jane, of the GAIA WG
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/gaia/about/), we would like to know
from you and work to move forward.

Leandro.

On 28/8/18 23:02, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote:
...
  Dear Leanardo,

 On Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 9:54 PM Leandro Navarro &lt;leandro(a)pangea.org
 <mailto:leandro@pangea.org>> wrote:

     Nice to read about frugal 5G. I see you combine the Wi-Fi with
     mobile operator models and centered into the SDN model. Nice, a
     bit confusing. I don't see why centering all under SDN and a
     global controller.

     Just a general comment/clarification about wireless (mobile, Wi-Fi
     ...). The G is about Generations, and there are several related
     but separate things in the 5G bundle:

 It is interesting that you have identified the components of the
 bundle of 5G promises. 

     - A lot of it (the "new radio") will come anyway to Wi-Fi (for
     instance 802.11ax in the 2.4-5GHz, ad or ay in 60GHz) with speeds
     in the range of 1-20 Gbps. One discussion from the IEEE
     Communications Society:
     http://techblog.comsoc.org/2018/07/21/will-802-11ax-be-a-5g-contender/

 The aspiration here is the 1-20 GBPS speed. If ax or ay can deliver
 that, that is where our focus needs to be. 

 Your link points to the IEEE paper that says 

 "all such “5G” BWA deployments (e.g. Verizon, C-Spire, etc)  are
 proprietary"

 ."once the cost curve comes down, 802.11ax Wi-Fi has the potential to
 deliver 5G-like user experiences at a fraction of the cost of similar
 cellular gear" 

     Therefore, the target speeds of 1 Gbps of user experience and peak
     up to 20 Gbps will come anyway and probably at the same time in
     mobile and Wi-Fi networks (both types of radio chipsets more or
     less come from the same sources).

 If we have ax or ay standard access points at the last mile, what
 technologies we need in the middle that are not proprietary and not
 cartel-dependant?

     - The other is about business models: 5G is about mobile
     operators, and keeping as much as possible in their controlled
     networks, away from the open Internet.

 The idea is to break away from these business models, stay away from
 controlled networks, use open technologies, make an AP, build a tower
 of some other sort, connect to the wire on the sea shore and deliver
 1-20 GBPS,, call it "CN nextG", forgive me for the pun :)

     In that model, mobile operator networks offer very high quality
     (low latency, performance guarantees) at a price inside their own
     network, while keep both "eyeballs" and content providers as
     customers inside its network.

     The Internet is outside (the operator's "walled garden"),

 Not acceptable. This thread is about Internet as the lifeline,
 everywhere, in it's wholeness, for everyone, always.

     slowerr and less predictable, in their model. In that centralized
     (operator) model, software defined networks make a lot of sense,
     much less in Internet networks like community networks.

     Wi-Fi and community networks clearly differ in the "business
     models" from mobile operator networks. Your Wi-Fi access point at
     home may be "yours" and can be meshed with others and become part
     of a community network if you want to, but your 5G base station at
     home will be an operator box,

 which would be another perpetual trap

     justt a service.

     - Regarding service cost and coverage, my bet is 5G, the big
     investment required, may slow down the expansion of mobile access
     to rural and remote areas, as the focus is in higher/premium
     quality service for a higher price service, and higher
     infrastructure cost per customer (high margin), instead of
     "best-effort"/commodity quality, at low price, low cost hw per
     customer (thin or negative margin).

     If you want more, we have a research paper exploring some of these
     issues http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro/pubs/5G.pdf

     Comments are very welcome,

     let's see if we can develop alternative models for "next
     generation" models for everyone,

 + + + 1

 Sivasubramanian M

     not mainly focused on those with high-end mobiles in dense
     affluent areas.

     Regards, Leandro.

     On 28/8/18 05:41, Sarbani Banerjee Belur wrote:

     Dear Jane,

     Prof. Abhay Karandikar is working on 5G solutions for rural
     broadband. His presentation can be viewed in the link below.

     https://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/~karandi/talks/Rural%20Broadband%20and%20Frugal%2…

     With regards,

     Sarbani

     On 28-08-2018 03:54, Jane Coffin wrote:

     Hi Siva –

     Thank you for this.

     From what I have seen – 5G seems to be an urban solution with
     some heavy equipment costs (still in projection phase).

     Have you seen any presentations on 5G and rural solutions?

     Best,

     Jane

     Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
     <http://www.internetsociety.org>

     Skype:  janercoffin

     Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

     *From: *&lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt;
     <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of
     Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com&gt;
     <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>
     *Reply-To: *Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity
     &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net>
     *Date: *Monday, August 27, 2018 at 6:17 PM
     *To: *&quot;steve(a)villagetelco.org&quot; <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org>
     &lt;steve(a)villagetelco.org&gt; <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org>,
     Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity
     &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net>
     *Subject: *Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated
     Broadband Company in America

     I am not sure if the attached Qualcomm presentation by Yongbin
     Wei has already been shared by any one in this mailing list.
     Found this, interesting because it talks about horizontal and
     vertical spectrum sharing, says MM bands are naturally more
     suitable for sharing, talks about Spatial Division Multiplexing,
     others on this list might understand all this better...

     Aspire and take CNs to 5G ????

     On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:57 PM Sivasubramanian M
     &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>> wrote:

         Dear Steve,

         Thank you for your kind words.

         I took time to respond to your message as I was spending
         time on http://villagetelco.org
         <http://villagetelco.org/> .  Watched the video on the front
         page, and it was fascinating to learn that mesh potato also
         doubles as some form of a local telecom intranet.  

         Long before messenger, skype and whatsapp, sometime during
         2000, a friend from Montreal told me that his telecom
         provider bundled wireless in his cellular telephone, and
         provided the ability for the subscribers to use the phone as
         a phone, and also as a wireless handset, with options (don't
         recollect if it was for the extended cellular range or for
         the limited wireless range, and not sure if the wireless
         range was different from the cellular range) for each
         subscriber to choose five other subscribers as an inner
         network, flip a button and talk to any of them, and the four
         others in turn had the ability to choose their own circle of
         five friends. 

         Mesh potato enhances the value of the Community Networks by
         enabling local communications. When the Internet of
         Community Networks is bundled with LAN features, and even
         more, with close circle network features, the value of the
         Community Network surpasses that of commercial networks.
         Just a thought. ( I am also reading your hardware
         specifications with interest.)

         Sivasubramanian M

         On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:50 PM Steve Song
         &lt;steve(a)villagetelco.org <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org>> wrote:

             Dear Siva,

             Thank you for taking the time to review and make such
             thoughtful commentary on the draft paper.  We will
             certainly take your feedback into consideration in
             producing the final version.

             Regards... Steve (and Carlos)

             P.S.  Love the parking lot analogy!

             On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 at 12:34, Sivasubramanian M
             &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>> wrote:

                 Dear Jane,

                 Please receive the attached comments on the ISOC
                 Spectrum Paper together with some unverified thoughts.

                 Sivasubramanian M

                 On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:13 AM Sivasubramanian M
                 &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>>
                 wrote:

                     On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 7:11 AM Jane Coffin
                     &lt;coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org>> wrote:

                         Hi Siva –

                         Brian Hall from NYC Mesh is included in this
                         thread.  He can help explain NYCMesh.

                         I fully agree that different connectivity
                         models need to be considered and would add
                         that different policy/regulatory models also
                         need to be considered.  It is something we
                         are keenly in favor of 😉

                         Links to some recent papers on Community
                         Networks also are below and attached is a
                         Spectrum Paper we are looking for feed-back
                         on by 24 August. 

                     midnight DC time? 

                     Thanks.

                         Steve Song, Carlos Rey-Moreno, Mike Jensen
                         are the primary authors with
                         direction/collaboration with our team at the
                         Internet Society.  Please send me an email
                         if you do have comments for us to consider.

                         Other Resources:

                         Case Study/Article re CN in Georgia: 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/05/technology/caucuses-mountain…

                         African CN Paper – Partnership with Carlos
                         Rey-Moreno: 

https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CommunityNetwork…

                         India – CN Paper – Partnership with DEF: 

https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/W4C-Policy-Paper…

                         Licensing Brief: 

https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Unleashing-Commu…

                         Spectrum Approaches for CNs: 

https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Spectrum-Approac…

                         The inputs to the IGF from this Coalition
                         are really great and Luca has the links.

                         Best,

                         Jane

                         Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
                         <http://www.internetsociety.org>

                         Skype:  janercoffin

                         Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

                         *From: *&lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net
                         <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net>>
                         on behalf of Sivasubramanian M
                         &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com
                         <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>>
                         *Reply-To: *Dynamic Coalition on Community
                         Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net
                         <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net>>
                         *Date: *Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:47 PM
                         *To: *Dynamic Coalition on Community
                         Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net
                         <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net>>, osama
                         manzar &lt;osamam(a)gmail.com
                         <mailto:osamam@gmail.com>>
                         *Subject: *Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is
                         the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America

                         Dear Jane,

                         Thank you for the informative messages and
                         links. DEF has done considerable work in the
                         area of Community Networks, and several
                         networks such as the one that Sarbani has
                         written about exist in India. However there
                         are issues related to the scale and scope of
                         operation, which revolve around the
                         regulatory policies that make it a little
                         difficult to create and operate networks. 

                         If I understood well, the NY Mesh network
                         has a supernode from the IXP and its
                         bandwidth comes from the IXP.   I am copying
                         this thread to Osama Manzar of DEF to ask if
                         there are examples of Community Networks in
                         India that do not depend on agreements with
                         Telecom Operators / telecom related ISPs,
                         which may not wholeheartedly support
                         Community Networks beyond the notion of
                         small rural networks. 

                         There are a few problems that need to be
                         addressed, and a different connectivity
                         model may be required together with ample
                         support from the Telecom ministry for the
                         spread of community networks in India. 

                         Thank you.

                         On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 11:01 PM Jane Coffin
                         &lt;coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org>>
                         wrote:

                             Apologies - I hit send before adding the
                             links:

                             DEF:  http://defindia.org/
                             Video on The Land of Zero Connect: 
                             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq27X8CJLTM
                             Link to APC's Community Network
                             Newsletter: 

https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec…
                             ISOC's Community Network site: 
                             https://www.internetsociety.org/issues/community-networks/

                             Internet Society |
                             www.internetsociety.org
                             <http://www.internetsociety.org>

                             Skype:  janercoffin

                             Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

                             On 8/16/18, 11:52 AM,
                             &quot;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net
                             <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net>
                             on behalf of Jane Coffin"
                             &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net
                             <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net>
                             on behalf of coffin(a)isoc.org
                             <mailto:coffin@isoc.org>> wrote:

                                 To add - you will find a lot of
                             interesting information here at the DEF
                             site:
                                 See also this video about a remote
                             area of India and lack of connectivity
                             and Community Networks coming in to help:

                                 We often hear these arguments about
                             "coverage".  The issue is not just the
                             mobile network footprint (coverage
                             area), but whether the services are
                             affordable, and if end-users have a
                             choice.  Community Networks are a viable
                             option in

                                 Internet Society |
                             www.internetsociety.org
                             <http://www.internetsociety.org>

                                 Skype:  janercoffin

                                 Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

                                 On 8/16/18, 11:27 AM,
                             &quot;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net
                             <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net>
                             on behalf of Sarbani Banerjee Belur"
                             &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net
                             <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net>
                             on behalf of sarbanibelur(a)iitb.ac.in
                             <mailto:sarbanibelur@iitb.ac.in>> wrote:

                                     Hi Sivasubramanian,

                                     Community networks does exist in
                             India and it is a sustainable initiative.
                                     Gram Marg at IIT Bombay has set
                             up one spanning 10 villages in Palghar,
                                     Maharashtra, Digital Empowerment
                             Foundation has set up some as well. There
                                     are more going to be set up in
                             this year and the next. These CNs are set
                                     up in locations that have no
                             mobile connectivity and are usually in
                                     remote, rural villages of India.
                                     Local ISPs have come to the
                             rescue and provide bandwidth in such
                             locations.

                                     With regards,
                                     Sarbani

  In Chennai, India, I spoke to              
               someone in an educational institution about
  starting a Community Network.              
               He argued that access is no longer a problem
  as Telecom companies offer 3G              
               and 4G services everywhere. He wouldn't
  listen to arguments concerning             
                the cost and clever pricing models of
  access
 that indiscernably amass huge                              sums by microscopic
extraction,  wouldn't
  listen to arguments about                  
           nominal and actual bandwidth.  He and some
  others
 take the position that a case                              does not exist for
Community Networks here.

 Happens to be an iconic                              opinion. It is a challenge to
present
                             arguments,
  articles such as this are of               
              ample help.

 Sivasubramanian M

 On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:20 PM                              Marco Zennaro
&lt;mzennaro(a)ictp.it
                             <mailto:mzennaro@ictp.it>> wrote:

> Interesting news:
>
>
>                             
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne5k5m/consumer-reports-broadban…
 >
> Cheers,
> Marco
>
> Marco Zennaro, PhD //                              Research Officer // T/ICT4D
Lab // ICTP //
 > wireless.ictp.it                       
      <http://wireless.ictp.it>
 >
>
>
>                              _______________________________________________
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                                     --
                                     Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur
                                     Senior Project Research Scientist
                                     Program Manager
                                     Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project
                                     Department of Electrical Engineering
                                     IIT Bombay
                                     Powai
                                     Mumbai 400076
                                     Mob: +91 9867282979
                                          +91 7045620077
                                     Website: www.grammarg.in
                             <http://www.grammarg.in>
                                     Homepage:
                             http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/
                             <http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/%7Esarbanibelur/>
                                     Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com
                             <http://sarbanibelur.blogspot.com>

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                         -- 

                         Sivasubramanian M

                         Please send all replies to
                         6.Internet(a)gmail.com
                         <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>

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                 Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com
                 <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>

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             +1 902 529 0046

             http://villagetelco.org

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         Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com
         <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>

     -- 

     Sivasubramanian M

     Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com
     <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com>

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     Senior Project Research Scientist
     Program Manager
     Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project
     Department of Electrical Engineering
     IIT Bombay
     Powai
     Mumbai 400076
     Mob: +91 9867282979
          +91 7045620077
     Website: www.grammarg.in <http://www.grammarg.in>
     Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/
     Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com <http://sarbanibelur.blogspot.com>

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Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America