Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America

Of course you’re right. I just want to make sure we don’t confuse the economic arguments with the technical ones. Whenever possible we should look for simple. But this isn’t the medium for the deeper conversation. From: dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; On Behalf Of Steve Song Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 14:07 To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America Hi Bob, On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 14:36, &lt;dc3(a)bob.ma <mailto:dc3@bob.ma> > wrote: We’re in strong agreement that 5G is about the business model of cellular and that commodity Wi-Fi will give us the capacity over time. This is why posted the pointer to https://rmf.vc/IEEEBBToInfrastructure arguing it’s about economics and not technology. There is no need for a complex financing scheme any more than we need a complex financing scheme for sidewalks. We just pool our resources (via taxes where appropriate) and pay for common infrastructure. The simpler the better. Avoid the telco business model of billable connectivity and services. Think dirt paths and paved sidewalks. Don’t think billable steps. I think the economics and organisational structure and politics are just as complicated as the technology. There are constraints that vary dramatically according to what country you live in and the associated policies and regulations. Even within countries (such as the US) there are huge variances. Financing can take so many different forms, from government grants or loans, to community bonds, to cooperative share offerings. Perhaps most interesting is Guifi.net's common pool resource model. Then there is the question of owning and operating or just owning the network. What is the relationship of the network to the municipality and to regional or even national government. There are many successful models of municipalities, cooperatives and foundations taking on this challenge but lots of terrible examples as well where the private sector has coopted the outcome. I think we need as much investment in understanding these models as we have in understanding the technology. Cheers... Steve We shouldn’t let the absurd 5G marketing effort divert us. I say absurd because don’t need gigabit connectivity merely to check the price of tomatoes in the market or send an image to ask if a rash is infectious. From: dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> > On Behalf Of Leandro Navarro Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:24 To: dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America Nice to read about frugal 5G. I see you combine the Wi-Fi with mobile operator models and centered into the SDN model. Nice, a bit confusing. I don't see why centering all under SDN and a global controller. Just a general comment/clarification about wireless (mobile, Wi-Fi ...). The G is about Generations, and there are several related but separate things in the 5G bundle: - A lot of it (the "new radio") will come anyway to Wi-Fi (for instance 802.11ax in the 2.4-5GHz, ad or ay in 60GHz) with speeds in the range of 1-20 Gbps. One discussion from the IEEE Communications Society: http://techblog.comsoc.org/2018/07/21/will-802-11ax-be-a-5g-contender/ Therefore, the target speeds of 1 Gbps of user experience and peak up to 20 Gbps will come anyway and probably at the same time in mobile and Wi-Fi networks (both types of radio chipsets more or less come from the same sources). - The other is about business models: 5G is about mobile operators, and keeping as much as possible in their controlled networks, away from the open Internet. In that model, mobile operator networks offer very high quality (low latency, performance guarantees) at a price inside their own network, while keep both "eyeballs" and content providers as customers inside its network. The Internet is outside (the operator's "walled garden"), slower and less predictable, in their model. In that centralized (operator) model, software defined networks make a lot of sense, much less in Internet networks like community networks. Wi-Fi and community networks clearly differ in the "business models" from mobile operator networks. Your Wi-Fi access point at home may be "yours" and can be meshed with others and become part of a community network if you want to, but your 5G base station at home will be an operator box, just a service. - Regarding service cost and coverage, my bet is 5G, the big investment required, may slow down the expansion of mobile access to rural and remote areas, as the focus is in higher/premium quality service for a higher price service, and higher infrastructure cost per customer (high margin), instead of "best-effort"/commodity quality, at low price, low cost hw per customer (thin or negative margin). If you want more, we have a research paper exploring some of these issues http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro/pubs/5G.pdf Comments are very welcome, let's see if we can develop alternative models for "next generation" models for everyone, not mainly focused on those with high-end mobiles in dense affluent areas. Regards, Leandro. On 28/8/18 05:41, Sarbani Banerjee Belur wrote: Dear Jane, Prof. Abhay Karandikar is working on 5G solutions for rural broadband. His presentation can be viewed in the link below. https://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/~karandi/talks/Rural%20Broadband%20and%20Frugal%2… With regards, Sarbani On 28-08-2018 03:54, Jane Coffin wrote: Hi Siva – Thank you for this. Have you seen any presentations on 5G and rural solutions? Best, Jane Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 From: <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; on behalf of Sivasubramanian M <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com&gt; Reply-To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; Date: Monday, August 27, 2018 at 6:17 PM To: <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org> &quot;steve(a)villagetelco.org&quot; <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org> &lt;steve(a)villagetelco.org&gt;rg>, Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net&gt; Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America I am not sure if the attached Qualcomm presentation by Yongbin Wei has already been shared by any one in this mailing list. Found this, interesting because it talks about horizontal and vertical spectrum sharing, says MM bands are naturally more suitable for sharing, talks about Spatial Division Multiplexing, others on this list might understand all this better... Aspire and take CNs to 5G ???? On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:57 PM Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > wrote: Dear Steve, Thank you for your kind words. I took time to respond to your message as I was spending time on <http://villagetelco.org/> http://villagetelco.org . Watched the video on the front page, and it was fascinating to learn that mesh potato also doubles as some form of a local telecom intranet. Long before messenger, skype and whatsapp, sometime during 2000, a friend from Montreal told me that his telecom provider bundled wireless in his cellular telephone, and provided the ability for the subscribers to use the phone as a phone, and also as a wireless handset, with options (don't recollect if it was for the extended cellular range or for the limited wireless range, and not sure if the wireless range was different from the cellular range) for each subscriber to choose five other subscribers as an inner network, flip a button and talk to any of them, and the four others in turn had the ability to choose their own circle of five friends. Mesh potato enhances the value of the Community Networks by enabling local communications. When the Internet of Community Networks is bundled with LAN features, and even more, with close circle network features, the value of the Community Network surpasses that of commercial networks. Just a thought. ( I am also reading your hardware specifications with interest.) Sivasubramanian M On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:50 PM Steve Song &lt;steve(a)villagetelco.org <mailto:steve@villagetelco.org> > wrote: Dear Siva, Thank you for taking the time to review and make such thoughtful commentary on the draft paper. We will certainly take your feedback into consideration in producing the final version. Regards... Steve (and Carlos) P.S. Love the parking lot analogy! On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 at 12:34, Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > wrote: Dear Jane, Please receive the attached comments on the ISOC Spectrum Paper together with some unverified thoughts. Sivasubramanian M On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:13 AM Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > wrote: On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 7:11 AM Jane Coffin &lt;coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org> > wrote: Hi Siva – Brian Hall from NYC Mesh is included in this thread. He can help explain NYCMesh. I fully agree that different connectivity models need to be considered and would add that different policy/regulatory models also need to be considered. It is something we are keenly in favor of 😉 Links to some recent papers on Community Networks also are below and attached is a Spectrum Paper we are looking for feed-back on by 24 August. midnight DC time? Thanks. Steve Song, Carlos Rey-Moreno, Mike Jensen are the primary authors with direction/collaboration with our team at the Internet Society. Please send me an email if you do have comments for us to consider. Other Resources: Case Study/Article re CN in Georgia: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/05/technology/caucuses-mountain… African CN Paper – Partnership with Carlos Rey-Moreno: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CommunityNetwork… India – CN Paper – Partnership with DEF: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/W4C-Policy-Paper… Licensing Brief: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Unleashing-Commu… Spectrum Approaches for CNs: https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Spectrum-Approac… The inputs to the IGF from this Coalition are really great and Luca has the links. Best, Jane Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 From: &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> > on behalf of Sivasubramanian M &lt;6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> > Reply-To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> > Date: Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:47 PM To: Dynamic Coalition on Community Connectivity &lt;dc3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3@listas.altermundi.net> >, osama manzar &lt;osamam(a)gmail.com <mailto:osamam@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [DC3] A Community-Run ISP Is the Highest Rated Broadband Company in America Dear Jane, Thank you for the informative messages and links. DEF has done considerable work in the area of Community Networks, and several networks such as the one that Sarbani has written about exist in India. However there are issues related to the scale and scope of operation, which revolve around the regulatory policies that make it a little difficult to create and operate networks. If I understood well, the NY Mesh network has a supernode from the IXP and its bandwidth comes from the IXP. I am copying this thread to Osama Manzar of DEF to ask if there are examples of Community Networks in India that do not depend on agreements with Telecom Operators / telecom related ISPs, which may not wholeheartedly support Community Networks beyond the notion of small rural networks. There are a few problems that need to be addressed, and a different connectivity model may be required together with ample support from the Telecom ministry for the spread of community networks in India. Thank you. On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 11:01 PM Jane Coffin &lt;coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org> > wrote: Apologies - I hit send before adding the links: DEF: http://defindia.org/ Video on The Land of Zero Connect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq27X8CJLTM Link to APC's Community Network Newsletter: https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec… ISOC's Community Network site: https://www.internetsociety.org/issues/community-networks/ Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 On 8/16/18, 11:52 AM, &quot;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of Jane Coffin" &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of coffin(a)isoc.org <mailto:coffin@isoc.org> > wrote: To add - you will find a lot of interesting information here at the DEF site: See also this video about a remote area of India and lack of connectivity and Community Networks coming in to help: We often hear these arguments about "coverage". The issue is not just the mobile network footprint (coverage area), but whether the services are affordable, and if end-users have a choice. Community Networks are a viable option in Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org <http://www.internetsociety.org> Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 On 8/16/18, 11:27 AM, &quot;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of Sarbani Banerjee Belur" &lt;dc3-bounces(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:dc3-bounces@listas.altermundi.net> on behalf of sarbanibelur(a)iitb.ac.in <mailto:sarbanibelur@iitb.ac.in> > wrote: Hi Sivasubramanian, Community networks does exist in India and it is a sustainable initiative. Gram Marg at IIT Bombay has set up one spanning 10 villages in Palghar, Maharashtra, Digital Empowerment Foundation has set up some as well. There are more going to be set up in this year and the next. These CNs are set up in locations that have no mobile connectivity and are usually in remote, rural villages of India. Local ISPs have come to the rescue and provide bandwidth in such locations. With regards, Sarbani -- Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur Senior Project Research Scientist Program Manager Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project Department of Electrical Engineering IIT Bombay Powai Mumbai 400076 Mob: +91 9867282979 +91 7045620077 Website: www.grammarg.in <http://www.grammarg.in> Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/ <http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/%7Esarbanibelur/> Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com <http://sarbanibelur.blogspot.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Steve Song +1 902 529 0046 http://villagetelco.org _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> -- Sivasubramanian M Please send all replies to 6.Internet(a)gmail.com <mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Dr. Sarbani Banerjee Belur Senior Project Research Scientist Program Manager Gram Marg: Rural Broadband Project Department of Electrical Engineering IIT Bombay Powai Mumbai 400076 Mob: +91 9867282979 +91 7045620077 Website: www.grammarg.in <http://www.grammarg.in> Homepage: http://homepages.iitb.ac.in/~sarbanibelur/ Blog: sarbanibelur.blogspot.com <http://sarbanibelur.blogspot.com> _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 _______________________________________________ DC3 mailing list DC3(a)listas.altermundi.net <mailto:DC3@listas.altermundi.net> https://listas.altermundi.net/mailman/listinfo/dc3 -- Steve Song +1 902 529 0046 http://villagetelco.org